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Is there a standardised English-English (as opposed to English that borrows words willy-nilly from Japanese) term for Shōjo manga (少女マンガ) used when describing it to people not familiar with manga and anime or the Japanese language?

One person suggested "girl-oriented manga", but that sounds ambiguous, because it sounds like it's talking about manga with lots of girls in it, as opposed to manga whose target audience is girls.

Andrew Grimm
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I'm sure the other people that answered are much more informed than myself, but I just wanted to say that back in 2000, Tokyopop was putting out 'Americanized' shojo manga (they changed the left-to-right format over to right-to-left, they changed character names to English names, and they often changed names of Japanese food or places to American food or places), and they put them out under a line of books they called 'Chix Comix'. These versions were pretty much forgotten when the better ones came out later, but since they did introduce a lot of people to manga, I heard some women and girls still refer to shojo as 'chick's comics' for a few years after. Just thought I'd mention that.

Honebami
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    That's an interesting point, but at least in part already mentioned in seijitsu's answer. Maybe it would be better suited as an edit to that answer? – mivilar Jul 05 '15 at 23:06
  • Ah, yeah, for some reason that comment didn't come up before //0// I must not have clicked 'show all', or something. Now I just feel dumb. I guess my comment still works as an 'abridged' version though? – Honebami Jul 06 '15 at 00:40
  • Since people are upvoting it and noone is complaining, I guess it's fine, yes ;) – mivilar Jul 06 '15 at 08:59
  • The OP's question was, "Is there a standardised . . . term" but this answer simply mentions the TokyoPop phrase which, I had posited in my answer, did not become a standard phrase used in the industry or in the fandom. If you want to argue that it is or ought to be the standardized phrase, please supply some argument for that position. If you don't think it is or should be the standardized phrase, this doesn't seem to be attempting to answer the OP's question... ;-) – seijitsu Jul 07 '15 at 12:17
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Unfortunately, I don't think we really have a term for this. Keep in mind there's a vast cultural gap between Japan and English-speaking countries, so our terminology doesn't exactly overlap.

If you're talking about movies, chick flick can come reasonably close. The demographics aren't a perfect match-up, and there are certain elements you might expect from chick flicks not always seen in shōjo media, but it's the closest the average English speaker can get.

My best suggestion is to go with the descriptive route: (Japanese) comic targeted at females, mostly preteen or younger.

Wikipedia's article on shōjo manga suggests the following:

As shōjo literally means "girl" in Japanese, the equivalent of the western usage will generally include the term: girls' manga (少女漫画 shōjo manga), or anime for girls (少女向けアニメ shōjo-muke anime).

Cattua
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    As a reminder, it is proper etiquette to explain why you downvoted on an answer or a question. Please don't downvote simply because you disagree. – Hydromast Jun 28 '15 at 03:17
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    I downvoted because this answer 1) incorrectly claims the target readers of _shoujo_ are "mostly teenaged" (see virmaior's accurate comments on ʞɹɐzǝɹ♦'s answer to this question), and 2) states that "chick flick" is "reasonably close" to the meaning of _shoujo_, but [that term bears connotations about the type of content](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_flick#Definitions) (see the [Cambridge English dictionary entry](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/chick-flick)) whereas _shoujo_ does not (_shoujo_ boasts all manner of genres, from sci-fi to horror to gag comic strips). – seijitsu Jun 28 '15 at 03:32
  • @seijitsu Vote as you like, but I'll give a brief rebuttal: (1) virmaior's comments about target readers are not accurate. While *Ribon* is now targeted at elementary to middle schoolers, it was formerly for girls all the way to high school age (while still classified as shoujo); the other two he mentions typically run an upper age of 15, and the JP article for *Ciao* mentions that it has also been considered to target those in girls' high schools. (2) I disagree with your source; Dictionary.com, Merriam-Webster, and Collins English all define it as "a film aimed at or appealing to women". – Cattua Jun 28 '15 at 03:48
  • @キルア, thanks for the response! True, shoujo magazines were previously aimed at a wider age range than they are now. But if you compare the current [Ciao official website design](http://ciao.shogakukan.co.jp) and content of its titles with those of magazines for teens from the same publisher, like [Flowers](http://flowers.shogakukan.co.jp), you can see that it targets younger readers. As virmaior noted, magazines for young girls sell more, so contemporary shoujo targets younger readers more than older ones. The magazines can claim an upper age of 15, and it’s not that high schoolers couldn't... – seijitsu Jun 28 '15 at 04:22
  • buy Ciao/Nakayoshi/Ribon, but I've not heard of this among all the Japanese teens/women I've asked; those loyal to Ciao said they lost interest by jr. high. I buy Ribon monthly but I’ve never seen a teen or adult buying or tachimi (stand-and-read) these magazines besides me (if I did, I’d try to make friends, that’s how rare it’d be!). The Cambridge dictionary I linked defined "about relationships, love, etc. that attracts mainly women,” and while "aimed at or appealing to women" is a closer meaning to shoujo, josei has been the term since the 90s, pushing the general image of shoujo younger – seijitsu Jun 28 '15 at 04:22
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    @seijitsu While I think there is still a sizable demographic of *shoujo* between 13-15, I've shifted the demographic spectrum in my answer slightly. I've retained the term *chick flick* since, while chick flicks generally employ certain tropes, they are not requisite in the genre. – Cattua Jun 28 '15 at 05:21
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    I am not going to downvote, because I think the conclusion ("Japanese manga targeted towards girls") is fine, but I share @seijitsu 's criticism that "chick flick" is a poor translation (of animated content) because of the additional connotations. (And well, it's probably shoujo films exist, given the results I've gotten for a quick search for `pretty cure films`.) – Maroon Jun 30 '15 at 19:55
  • Never mind, I did down vote, for the reasons I described above. – Maroon Jun 30 '15 at 20:41
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    @Maroon as キルア explained, while it is a poor translation of the term, it is the closest we have in the English language to it. He also adjusted the demographics slightly to fit the definition more. If you disagree, please explain more as the OP has provided his rebuttals to the arguments above. Also note that "chick flick" in this context is not meant to be derogatory. – Hydromast Jul 01 '15 at 00:24
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    @Frosteeze: It really just boils down to the sense that chick flicks, are catered more towards preteens or _older_. In terms of content or target, I _could_ see chick flicks at not just being about romance (examples abound), but combining the age connotations and the sense that the content should be relatively "light" (not how I would characterize, say, Utena), I rather just say "Japanese X targeted towards girls" for accuracy. – Maroon Jul 01 '15 at 01:19
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    I've updated the answer somewhat to reflect the disparity between *chick flick* and *shōjo*, but I maintain that it's about as accurate of a term as you'll find in the English language. – Cattua Jul 01 '15 at 04:18
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Is there a standardised English-English (as opposed to English that borrows words willy-nilly from Japanese) term for Shōjo manga (少女マンガ) used when describing it to people not familiar with manga and anime or the Japanese language?

No, there is not a standardised English-English term for Shōjo manga. However:

  • There is a succinct, accurate, and accepted English-only way to describe Shōjo manga in to people not familiar with manga, anime, or the Japanese language.
  • There is a standardised term for Shōjo manga but it is comprised of loanwords which were not borrowed "willy-nilly."

How to Describe to Those Unfamiliar with Anime/Manga

Although shoujo can still be used to refer to manga targeted at Japanese female teens and women, the accurate way since the 1990s to describe shoujo manga to those unfamiliar with anime/manga has been a descriptive phrase:

Japanese comics published in magazines that have a target readership of elementary school girls.

Matt Thorn, one of the world's shoujo manga experts and professor in the Faculty of Manga at Kyoto Seika University, acknowledges in his article What Shôjo Manga Are and Are Not:

For most Japanese below the age of fifty, such categories as shôjo ("girls") manga and shônen ("boys'") manga require no definition or clarification. They are as plain as the nose on your face. But to outsiders, it seems, the categories are perplexing, and therefore a little explanation is required. Most people seem to think that shôjo manga are distinguished by certain features of content and style. For example: the eyes are unusually large (even by manga standards); flowers and bubbles are often seen floating in the background; they are romances; or they invariably have a female protagonist. I've seen fans debate these fine points on English-language message boards for ten years or more, and when I intervene and offer my own two cents (based on 15 years of studying shôjo manga, their readers, their creators, their editors, their publishers, and their retailers), participants are usually disappointed. This is probably because, after they have plumbed the depths of style and content ad nauseam, I simply tell them that shôjo manga are manga published in shôjo magazines (as defined by their publishers), and shônen manga are manga published in shônen manga magazines (likewise defined by publishers).

I'm sorry, but that's really all there is to it. Naturally, there will be certain leanings in one genre or the other, since they are geared at different sexes, but just as you will find sci-fi shôjo manga, you will also find romantic shônen manga.

Matt Thorn is not alone in this definition: others well-respected in establishing the global fandom of shoujo content concur, including the following figures:

SHOUJO: Manga or Anime which was originally marketed to girls or ladies. The content is superfluous -- it is the marketing intent, not the content, which determines whether a feature is shoujo or shounen.

Shoujo (girls') is not a genre itself - it's the marketing strategy. Shoujo simply means that the title was originally marketed to a female audience in Japan. Nothing more than that. Shoujo includes its own genres that cannot be found in their original form within the shounen world, including mahou shoujo, shounen ai, yaoi, yuri, and others. . . . It is not even neccessarily work by a specific creator. For example, the beloved team CLAMP is responsible for outstanding examples of shoujo manga and anime, but has also created shounen manga. What's the difference between the shounen manga and the shoujo manga? The shounen series was serialized in a manga magazine aimed at male readers.

What is shoujo? "Shoujo manga" is the term used to classify those manga published in magazines oriented towards girls and young women ^^ This genre encloses a pretty wide variety of genres in itself; the all-famous "magical girl" genre is typical of the shoujo, and so are themes like sport-girls' life, romance, grown-up stories, etc. ^^

  • Emiko of Emi-chan's Ribon

Shoujo - Literally, "young girl". It is usually descriptive of a certain genre of comics/manga. Shoujo manga is comics for young girls.

The Standardised English Term

It may sound confusing, but there is a standard English term that was not chosen "willy-nilly." Actually, the standard term is... "shojo manga", which is now a valid English phrase.

Both "shojo" and "manga" are actually English words just as much as "kamikaze" or "skosh" are legitimate words in the English language (that were derived from Japanese words). You can play the word "manga" or pluralize it as "mangas" in the official rules of Scrabble, which are rooted in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Note that the English-language word "manga" has a different meaning from the Japanese word. The Japanese word 「漫画」 (manga) can refer to all comics from any countries/cultures (i.e. including American comics), whereas the English word definition specifies that manga are Japanese comics.

The Oxford Dictionary defines it as:

shojo: A genre of Japanese comics and animated films aimed primarily at a young female audience, typically characterized by an intense focus on personal and romantic relationships

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines it as:

shojo: manga intended primarily for girls

Both use the spelling "shojo," rather than shoujo or shôjo or shōjo.

Demographics: Who Shoujo Manga is Aimed At

Matt Thorn recounts that

Strictly speaking, the term shôjo manga refers only to those manga geared explicitly at girls below the age of eighteen, but as often as not it is used as I use it in this article, to refer to all female-oriented manga. . . .

however,

Manga magazines geared at adult women also began to appear in the 1980s

and so

[T]he first successful manga targeting adult women were labeled as "ladies' comics," and these comics quickly acquired a stigma that fans of shôjo manga did not want to be associated with. . . . It wasn't really until the 1990s that sophisticated and intellectually stimulating manga for women began to really get a foothold in the manga industry in Japan. . . . [We] call them josei-muke ("woman-oriented") or josei ("women's") manga.

We see here that the term shoujo previously described a wider target age range than it generally does now. Since josei has been the term for women’s manga since the 90s, that addition to the terminology has pushed the general image of shoujo to a younger age range than it encompassed up to and during the emergence of josei. Furthermore, the older the average Japanese grows, the less manga he/she reads (see the “Have the Japanese created genres to meet the interests of those who consume anime and manga (which if I'm not mistaken, is a far larger amount than Americans who consume comics and cartoons)?” part of this answer starting from the “Unlike in many parts of the world…” bullet point for demographic info). As virmaior first noted here in his comment on a deleted answer, magazines for young girls sell more than those for older girls/teens/women, so contemporary shoujo targets younger readers more than older ones.

Evidence that the targeted age range for most shoujo manga is young elementary school age can be taken from:

  • the age of the real-life models shown the photos on pages about fashion/hair/make-up or modeling next month’s advertised furoku. In the big three magazines (Ribon, Nakayoshi, and Ciao), they are always preteens.
  • the age of the male idol groups featured on pages containing news or interviews with idols -- in the big three these are usually the ones comprised of younger boys such as Ya-Ya-yah and Sexy Zone.
  • the type of furoku [freebies] included with magazine issues. In Ribon, Nakayoshi, and Ciao, the bulk of furoku can only be used by little kids: a Japanese high schooler couldn’t be caught dead wearing them. The furoku produced in recent years have increasingly become "kiddie" items.
  • the types of commercials that air during shoujo anime. If they are advertising children's sneakers, Barbie-style fashion dolls, and eye drops for swimming at the kiddie pool, you can know the target readership of the manga that this anime was adapted from is young girls rather than teens.
  • the fact that only 1) young kid characters, 2) very childish characters, and 3) hardcore otaku characters in anime/manga are ever shown reading a manga magazine. Tsukino Usagi in Sailor Moon and Gouda Takeo in Ore!! Monogatari are shown with manga magazines in their bedrooms, because it shows that these characters have the mental age of an elementary school kid despite being high school freshmen. Manga magazines aren't found in the bedrooms of mature and average teen characters, just as most real-life Japanese teen girls do not read manga.

Pitfalls in Referring to Shoujo Manga as Chick Lit

In キルア's answer and the comments to it, the term "chick flick" is posited as "the closest the average English speaker can get" to an equivalent term. Rather than posting further comment there about his rationale, I will append some cautions for this approach here:

  • the slang term "chick" is offensive/disliked by some women who consider it derogatory or disrespectful, whereas the word "shoujo" isn't slang and doesn't bear any negative or controversial connotations.
  • the term "chick" refers to women, not usually to young girls, whereas "shoujo" refers to girls rather than to grown woman. Accordingly, chick flicks are targeted more at adult women than they are at young girls, whereas shoujo manga is targeted more at young girls than at adult women.
  • the term "chick flick" is not applied to non-Japanese animation targeted at girls (such as My Little Pony, Powerpuff Girls, Dora the Explorer, Ni Hao, Kai-Lan, and Disney Fairies) nor to live-action films targeted at girls (such as Ramona and Beezus, What a Girl Wants, Matilda, Harriet the Spy, The Secret Garden, and the American Girls franchise). If there is a term that describes these, it might be appropriate for shoujo manga.
  • the term "chick flick" refers to films. Since shoujo manga is a print medium rather than film, "chick lit" or "chix comix" come closer to it than "chick flick" does.
  • American feminist film critic Molly Haskell describes chick flicks as "sing[ing] a different tune" from the "women's pictures" of the 1950s and are "more defiant and upbeat, post-modern and post-feminist." In contrast, shoujo manga is a marketing strategy that has nothing to do with the content of the stories, which encompass every literary genre, and many are not-at-all feminist or post-feminist.

  • chick flicks are associated heavily with light romance plots. The Cambridge Dictionary defines "chick flick" as "about relationships, love, etc. that attracts mainly women.” Wikipedia says "a film genre mainly dealing with love and romance," "'chick-flick' is typically used only in reference to films that are heavy with emotion or contain themes that are relationship-based," "most films that are considered chick-flicks are lighthearted," and "generally held in popular culture as having formulaic, paint-by-numbers plot lines and characters." While many shoujo manga do feature relationships, there are plenty more which are about anything under the sun other than an angsty young woman in a love triangle. A few examples are the sci-fi classic Terra he... and tons of works written by the venerated Moto Hagio, such as her manga about Siamese twins, her manga about a man trapped in a room as a science experiment, 11nin Iru! (They Were Eleven: a space academy entrance exam mystery), Poo no Ichizoku (The Family of Poe: a serious story about a vampire family), to name only a few. Even shoujo manga stories that include romance can make it take quite a backseat and not figure as a main plot element; for example, Glass no Kamen, Attack No. 1, and Magic Knight Rayearth. These are all a far cry from the best-known staples of chick flicks (i.e. Breakfast at Tiffany's, Bridget Jones Diary, The Notebook, and Twilight).

    If we consider "chix comix" as a better substitute than "chick flick," we come to the following problems:

  • this was a term coined by TokyoPop for their shoujo manga translations but it did not catch on in the industry. Do a Google search for the term and not much comes up.

  • no one uses this term to refer to non-Japanese girl-targeted comics such as Persepolis, Anya’s Ghost, Castle Waiting, Jem and the Holograms, W.I.T.C.H., Winx Club, Marvel's Barbie, or Disney Princess comics. As some of these are award-winning literature, to call them "chick"-anything sounds not only misleading but rude.

    If we consider "chick lit" as a better substitute:

  • renowned classics of world literature targeted at female readers are not customarily referred to as "chick lit." Shoujo manga includes esteemed award-winning literary classics which deserve the same respect.

  • chick lit is a genre that emerged in the late 1990s, whereas shoujo manga has been developing a vast variety of literary genres since the 1950s.
  • while "Chick lit typically features a female protagonist whose womanhood is heavily thematized in the plot," the arena of shoujo manga includes many series which do not dwell on the protagonist's womanhood at all and, in fact, there are plenty of titles which feature a male protagonist --- not only the massive corpus of boy's love manga, but even mainstream shoujo titles such as Ore!! Monogatari, D・N・Angel, Tokyo Babylon, and Cowboy Bebop (yes, the Cowboy Bebop manga is shoujo).
  • chick lit remains subject to harsh feminist literary criticism as the bulk of its titles feature a white, upper-class protagonist. Shoujo manga's critics and their criticisms are wholly different.

In conclusion, the terms "chick flick" and "chick lit" often evoke connotations that are more harmful than helpful in succinctly and clearly describing what shoujo manga is. "Japanese comics published in magazines that have a target readership of elementary school girls" is admittedly a bit longer rolling off the tongue but is a more neutral way to describe shoujo manga using only English words without the risk of accidentally inserting misrepresentative associations that are untrue of shoujo manga.

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seijitsu
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    Correct or not, the OP is asking for a equivalent or near equivalent term in English to explain to people who don't know anything about Japanese terms. You might want to size down the assertion that the term shojo manga is English (since it doesn't quite answer the question), and/or move the English term/explanation you suggest to the top. – nhahtdh Jun 28 '15 at 05:08
  • @nhahtdh, thanks for the formatting suggestion! I moved the definition to the top & added headings instead of arguing for it first & then summarizing. Since the OP asked both "Is there a standardised English-English . . . term" and about how to describe _shoujo_ "to people not familiar with manga and anime," I wanted to include answers to both: that yes, there is a standard English term; however, Thorn noted that the standard term on its own doesn't help people who're unfamiliar with anime/manga at all, and so I also provided a concise yet accurate English phrase explaining what it is. (^_~) – seijitsu Jun 28 '15 at 06:08
  • I've received some upvotes but also some downvotes. As Frosteeze reminded here yesterday, it's proper SE etiquette to explain why you downvoted an answer or a question: which part of this answer is inaccurate and needs to be fixed? – seijitsu Jun 29 '15 at 09:09
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    I downvoted for the same reason as nhahtdh. OP asked for the English equivalent of *shojo manga*, **without using Japanese loanwords**, which you did not provide. In SE it is also etiquette to not needlessly spam and upvote similar comments instead, which I did. – Peter Raeves Jun 29 '15 at 13:08
  • @Peter Raeves From the start, I _did_ provide the English equivalent without including any Japanese loanwords, which is in bold text: **"Japanese comics published in magazines that have a target readership of elementary school girls."** Is there a better way to make clear that this is the equivalent? As nhahtdh noted, I had provided an "English term/explanation" which should be relocated from the bottom (as a summary) to the top (I moved it up per the suggestion). Looking at キルア's selected answer for an equivalent, it relies upon inclusion of loanwords: “manga targeted at females . . .” and – seijitsu Jun 30 '15 at 00:45
  • . . . “girl’s manga, or anime for girls,” in which the words "manga" and "anime" are the sort of loanwords that the OP requested avoiding for talking with someone unfamiliar with those terms (if you take those out of キルア's answer, you are left with only “targeted at females . . .” & "girls' ... or ... for girls" which does not describe what it is that’s being targeted at girls. Not to mention that films and anime don’t describe shoujo _manga_, which was the requested phrase). Please let me know how my answer needs to be fixed since it already provides an English-only equivalent phrase. Thanks! – seijitsu Jun 30 '15 at 00:45
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    OP asked "Is there a English term for shojo manga?" and you said as your 1st sentence, "Yes, there is, it is shojo manga"... I fail to see how that is not using any loanwords... Eric replied that "Chick flick", or thus "chick comic" in this case, would be the closest equivalent, to which I seem to agree, because shojo manga is (imo) a comic (manga) for chicks (shojo). While your answer would be great if OP had asked "how to explain shojo manga", I don't know what advice I could give you on the current answer to the current question. Maybe somebody else could help you out. Sorry about that. – Peter Raeves Jun 30 '15 at 16:09
  • After reading your edit, I started getting confused as to what makes something shonen vs shojo in Japan. Take One Piece for example. It is now classified as Shonen. To me that makes much sense, because it has action, adventure, no romance, a boy protagonist, big boobs, pervert comments, blood, death, explosions, loyalty, robots etc. Things boys like to read about. Now if Oda would have published this in a shojo magazine instead, then it would automatically have been classified as a shojo manga? Because as you say, content is not related to the genre? – Peter Raeves Jul 01 '15 at 19:21
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    I think the section "The Standardised English Term" should just be removed outright - or at least the assertion that "the term is shoujo manga", since it only serves to distract readers from your point - your post can do without that assertion at all. I believe the OP is asking for something that you would put in an English-English dictionary like what you quote from Merriam Webster - a term or a short explanation that would explain shoujo manga to someone who first comes across it. (As for the rest, I think you are going too far on your expansion - it may well belong on a different question) – nhahtdh Jul 01 '15 at 20:53
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    @Peter Raeves yes, by george, you've got it! If ONE PIECE had been selected by editors to publish in a shoujo magazine exactly as it is, it'd be shoujo. Many shoujo do feature action, adventure, no romance, a boy protagonist, big boobs, pervert comments, blood, death, explosions, loyalty, and/or robots, as these are things that girls also like to read about (of those, you may be least likely to come across perverted comments in shoujo, but that exists too: [Patalliro!](http://www.caithion.net/patarillo), [HIGH SCORE](http://highscoreop.blogspot.jp)). See Cowboy Bebop link in my answer for more – seijitsu Jul 02 '15 at 00:03
  • @Maroon, thanks for the helpful edit! Also forgot to mention to Peter Raeves some great shoujo examples of large breasts, perverted comments, leering, blood, death, explosions, action, and adventure: [Majokko Megu-chan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majokko_Megu-chan#Social_commentary) (see link for details about its fan service, naughtiness, etc.) and [Cutie Honey Flash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutie_Honey_Flash)! – seijitsu Jul 02 '15 at 00:19
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    Would agree that there's probably a tad bit too much expansion here, but I wouldn't feel comfortable making any extensive edits (given that this isn't my post / I'm not working as an editor here, etc.). @PeterRaeves: tbh I feel like a lot of categorizations don't make much sense unless approached from such an angle -- e.g. there's nothing obviously "gendered" to me about Aku no Hana (which is shonen) -- although things then appear ridiculously arbitrary. – Maroon Jul 02 '15 at 01:19
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    @seijitsu It is quite counter intuitive to think a comic is targeted towards a demographic *just cos the publisher says so*, regardless of the content, art or whatever, so here will be my last question. When you say "if OP was selected by a shojo magazine editor", are you really telling me there is no selection criteria? Just anything that sells would be fine? Sorry for being a slow learner :p, but assuming the answer is yes, I think I'll stop filtering on shonen from now on and check out some of the popular shonen, seinen and josei comics as they will be similar as you say. – Peter Raeves Jul 02 '15 at 08:19
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    As an amateur linguist I agree with 'the standard term is... "shojo manga", which is now a valid English phrase.' Languages borrow words from other languages because they do not have a word for the concept the borrowed word represents. We anime fans borrowed "shoujo" because it was a single, perfectly good word that encapsulated "Japanese comics targeted at girls and young women". In English, it's a technical term, like "heteroscedasticity" or "pointillism" or "agglutinative". – Torisuda Jul 06 '15 at 08:35
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    There's no five-letter word of Germanic origin for "heteroscedasticity"; if someone doesn't know that word, it has to be explained, probably at great length. That said, I'm surprised this topic generated so much controversy. – Torisuda Jul 06 '15 at 08:36